Building through Experimentation w/ Xenosine

In this episode, I chat with Vijay Thillaimuthu also known as Xenosine, a Tamil-Australian audio-visual and laser artist whose work is rooted in curiosity, feedback systems, and exploration of electromagnetic phenomena. We dig into the process behind his latest and most ambitious work, Oblation, a massive audio-visual piece that took five years to realise. Vijay shares how his creative practice is guided by experimentation, constantly chasing how one element affects another - whether through voltage, sound, or light. But we also talk about the hidden toll of large-scale projects: the emotional weight, the unseen labour, and the fine line between deep focus and burnout. It’s a conversation about staying curious, navigating timelines, and finding meaning in the act of making.

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Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

If I launch off on a topic and then be like, uh I want to do that again. Yes, I can do that.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Yeah, okay. The rewind function.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

So yeah, I do it. I do it. Okay. Welcome to Serial Music Talks Podcast, the podcast where I dive deep into the honest conversations that shape the Melbourne music scene. I'm your host, Riva from OK Olizia. And each month I sit down with musicians, music producers, sound designers to talk about the real challenges we face in the industry. Whether it's the breaking from your markets, the battle new poster syndrome, the overcoming writer's blog, or just navigating the awful world of social media. A new episode drops every last Tuesday of the month. And to stay connected, you can subscribe to my newsletter where you can access all the links, resources, and insights that are mentioned during the show. Just find the link somewhere, I don't know, below, above, on my website, and you'll never miss a beat. I actually met you, I don't know. It's fine if you don't remember, but like we have a mutual friend called Vlad.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Who's been in these uh toastcon bands. Yeah. SuperX. How do you know Vlad? Vlad played.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

No, it's fine. Absolutely fine. Um Vlad played drums in my like psychedelic, uh like improvised, like kind of crowd rock band called Vodnik.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Um amazing, amazing drama.

Meet Xenosine - Sound, Lasers + Electromagnetic Worlds

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Here I am in front of Melbourne Museum in Fitzroy or Carlton Gardens. And today I'm joined uh by Vijay Tialimutu, or also known as uh Xenostein, a Tamil Australian audiovisual and laser artist whose work um is informed uh largely by exploration of electromagnetic phenomena. So he creates unique immersive environments, and one of his latest work uh that was presented at Azeptopa, Oblation, um, was probably one of his biggest work so far. And that's some of that that's one of the things that we covered in this episode. It was mostly about the process, process of experimentation, curiosity, tenacity, and of course, burnout in how, you know, when you have uh big ideas um and big works, uh there's a hidden toll, hidden labor that um we all go through. Yeah. So before going all into all these uh experimental waters where you're at right now. So I've listened to you to podcast uh being biracial. Yeah. Uh where you were a guest last month in April, and I've heard a bit of a story of how you begin with music. And I really want to explore that. One of the things that you mentioned is that you've started when you were a kid, you started um like dismantling machines and making sh like finding out what how they work.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Yeah, yeah. Why um why? Yeah. Good question. I think it was all just like part of play for me in a sense. Um the earliest thing I started doing was like, I guess it all started with like um, you know, like playing guitar and having like effects pedals, all and all of this stuff was just kind of like stuff my dad had lying around, like this Japanese fuzz pedal.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

So your dad was uh is a musician.

“DIY synth” experiments + bending drum machines

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it was just some, but but he sort of had these ideas of like mm starting a studio um but never sort of really got to it. So there were just kind of bits and pieces around that I'd kind of find. Um, and so one of those things was this old like um beaten-up kind of realistic mixer from the 80s, um, and then I just sort of started like uh sending like the outputs into the inputs and making like feedback loops with it, which kind of like was my first kind of like rudimentary synthesizer. Um old were you? Maybe like 13? 13, 14? Yeah. Yeah, and uh so then I would like take that and then you know put effects pedals in between that. Um and then yeah, slowly as this kind of progressed, I started um like I found this like old like drum machine, like really rudimentary. Um, and I sort of like learnt about like circuit bending and had this idea about like sort of opened up the back and and started like um making connections with my fingers and seeing what that did to the sound, and then that started eventually sparking and eventually I killed it. So then I had this idea to like uh somehow make it still work. So I like put it in this case and just started making sort of like random connections and like almost got back the functionality of a drum machine, but not quite. It was kind of like a broken drum machine. Um I've still got it, it's kind of in on display in my studio at the moment. And then I guess like a little bit later, uh I ended up um like rewiring like CRT televisions, which is extremely dangerous, and um don't do it really. Like just don't do it.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Yeah, on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Because uh you can like even if you like unplug them, the capacitors in there like store like huge amounts of voltage. Um so even if it's unplugged and you make connection in the wrong way, you could potentially you know send thousands of volts in your direction, that's not good. Um and it's basically what I was doing was just building a sort of rudimentary oscilloscope. But before I got to like rewiring them, even just sending like really over-driven like sound voltage into like CRT televisions and how that sort of started to generate patterns and things.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

This seems like you were very determined and quite clear about what you're interested in, you know. So I'm just curious, did it also reflect on, you know, what what was your interest in high school or like what were your extracurricular activities? Like how how else did you feed this?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Uh yeah, I mean I guess there was a lot of experimentation in like um playing in like you know, just I guess different bands. Um and how I could sort of like funnel in some of this work with that. Um yeah, ultimately I guess there was I guess there's a lot going on. It was a bit of a scattergun approach like early on where I was just doing lots of things in lots of different directions. Um but yeah, w and when I sort of studied, I ended up like learning more about like sound engineering and um yeah, learning a bit of like Max and programming and um and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

How when was that? How how old were you?

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Uh like so the first year out of high school.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Okay, well that that's what I'm saying. Like so you already, you know, like I've only learned learned about max MSP after like 15 years playing in the band. I was completely uninterested, you know, it was just like fuck that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Uh so I that's why it seems like from the get-go, you were like, Oh, I really want to know how things work and I want to make them from scratch on my own.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Yeah, that was definitely there. I mean, there was also like a whole bunch of diverse stuff. Like at one stage, I was like playing, like playing saxophone in like a free jazz band. Like it's it's kind of just seemed like a lot of things all at once. Um, but definitely it was something I was, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Maybe, maybe. Let's just wait for this uh helicopter. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

But yeah, I think one one thing was particularly this like uh mixer that I was using to generate tones. Um I was just kind of obsessed with the idea of like where is this sound coming from? Like how is this being like generated or synthesized? And I sort of I did end up getting a synthesizer relatively young as well. It was it was kind of cool, but it was kind of rudimentary as well. But um I was I was yeah interested in kind of like having a sort of like web of kind of uh electronics that I was somehow in control of. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

Yeah, it seems like you again I feel like you really was uh curiosity, just like I just keep thinking, wow, uh you were a really curious kid. Like that's that that that that seems like you know, I I don't know, I just keep imagining, you know, kids that just play with something and they're so focused. And I feel like, you know, I've I've been following your work since I moved to Melbourne, so it's been like five years. Um and it seems very consistent. And and and now that you're telling me this story, it makes sense. Like that youth came because I really think that what you've you you're creating right now, it's like wow, it takes you know, it takes a long time to evolve a practice such as yours. It's like it seems very complex, very elaborate, very comprehensive, cool, you know, well thought through. Um and I'm just fascinated and I'm just curious, yeah, yeah. I'm j I just want to know, pick your brain about you know how long it it took you to get here. But like if you started No, I mean if you started by dismantling, you know, um machines at that young age.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Well, yeah, first of all, like thanks so much. Like I really appreciate that. Um yeah, I mean I s I, you know, slowly got into like um sort of building like modular synthesizer systems. Um and and like I guess like by and sorry, I'm you know, I'm an audiovisual artist, so I you know I use it in conjunction with like um like display technologies, whether that's like programming on touch designer or um or you know with um lasers. Um but it's I feel like it's something that kind of only makes sense in like hindsight. Like you're looking at it from this like kind of like you know, nice narrative of uh of the way that it went or whatever, but I'm pretty sure if you like stopped at any like points um during that time, it would be like what what are you doing? Um you're doing what and why.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

Ah, that's a really good point. I think I think you've touched to the very core. I I I like if I may just like say that that resonates 100% with every single day in my life since I've been creating something on my own. It's like what am I doing? Like if you go so deep into one thing, right? You go either is it like okay, now I'm doing something in touch designer, and like I'm so deep into solving this problem, you can't see the forest out of the tree. Like it's c it's like very often that's the feeling.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

I don't know if it is Yeah, absolutely. And that's that that kind of like uh like sort of deep detail and then like needing to like zoom out and then zoom back in, it's like seems like a kind of constant thing.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Um take take my compliment please because like showing consistency, like looking from afar and having a clear picture of what you do. That's that's great.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Well thanks. But I think what's probably what uh I guess unites it why it makes sense to you, uh is um maybe some out of work that you know But also like that it's kind of driven by like process and like kind of detail and which is kind of like.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

What would you what would you say it's like, you know, if you have to pick one thing that really like drives you to go this deep into this?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah, I mean I think it's just like this uh kind of willingness to like explore and like I don't think it's you know a particularly complicated idea, but just you know, just to explore and see what I can generate or s or or try and like understand something, like the underlying things behind sound, like particularly synthesis. Um there was just this time where like I had this like amazing experience of just seemingly being able to just like plug things into other things and it just worked and did amazing things. And like, and then you know, then that's kind of is not always the case, and so like you sort of end up in this kind of problem-solving mindset of like how do I make this thing do this thing?

SPEAKER_03 12:21

And I also feel like by doing that, which is you know, it's a c definition, one of the you know, core elements of experimentation process. It's like in the process of trying those out, actively doing something, you do generate more ideas and more like more new things to explore, like it's the never ending process.

Audio vs Visual - Which Leads?

SPEAKER_00 12:44

And you also like start to yeah, you sort of get conceptual ideas from that, and then that might like feed that that thinking, and then you sort of feed that back into the process in different ways. Yeah. I mean is isn't it isn't it for everyone?

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Yeah, I mean it is, but yeah, look, you're you're the guest in this podcast. But yeah, I actually wanted to ask you that because from the work that I've seen and read about. Well, I guess I had two questions. The first question is what comes first in because you are an audio visual artist. So is there I guess a rule or maybe like is it the visuals or the audio or like depends? And then the second thing is you know how how fixed are you at investigating how they interact with each other, affect each other. Because that seems from what I could see, it seems like uh one of the crucial points of your work.

Ablation - The Five-Year Build

SPEAKER_00 13:46

So first of all, I guess like um I kind of like build these uh sort of systems that kind of interact in different ways. Um and then I kind of like don't I don't like it's not like I specifically compose the music and then see how that looks or something. It's more like I'm like trying stuff out and sort of seeing what that looks like as I'm doing it and going, oh that's kind that's kind of interesting, whatever. It can go like either way, either I can like um use basically sound tools to make visuals. Sometimes it looks better than it sounds, and vice versa. So trying to find some sort of middle ground, which is a really weird limitation. Well, it can also go the other way where I'm like designing shapes and seeing what that sounds like, um, which is often what I do with lasers, uh, but I can go both ways as well. I guess I sort of think about the visuals like I think about sound a little bit. Um, and even like um Greg Hermonovic who uh built Touch Designer was telling me that he kind of built designed it with like the idea of like the ARP 2600 in mind, like so he wanted like a piece of software that felt like you could kind of um patch it like a synthesizer, so it works for me.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

Yeah, maybe maybe this is a good moment to like touch on the the latest work that I actually missed in its ablation that was presented during Asia Topa. I saw videos, I saw images, and it just looks amazing. So that piece consists contains many elements, including live singers.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Basically, this uh ablation was like this um labor of love that I've been working on for like over five years. Um it there was sort of like you know, conceptual concerns. I was kind of inspired by Vedic chanting, which is like an unbroken um ancient um uh oral tradition um uh involving chanting the Vedas where the specific like pronunciation um defines the divinity. I was kind of inspired by that. Um but it was yeah, for those that don't know, this work was basically like um involved like um three lasers, like a suspended, semi-translucent, three-dimensional shape, a tower of synthesizers, um, three projectors projected and mapped to the shape, and a uh kinetic ensemble. Um oh, and also like uh there's like kind of cinatic tables. Um so what kind of kept happening was I would like get um get some interest and support to develop it, and I'd start developing it, um, and you know it would go you know pretty well and and then it would sort of not quite make the sort of presentation opportunity for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

So when did you start developing it, if I may, just interrupt, just to uh so yeah, that would be like five years ago, so like 2020? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

So that's where you already had the concept. Have you had some like rough videos or like at least how was how how did the concept look like in what phase was it?

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yeah, I guess uh I definitely had the concept um and it was sort of like iterative from there. The first version um ultimately uh had like you know less lasers, less projectors. Um it was more like um like there wasn't like a central kind of focal point. I was more like performing like from the side in a way. Um and that but that wasn't like the finished part, that was kind of part of the development. Um it kind of got a new life when I started um collaborating with Harry Savanason, who um is an incredible um kinetic vocalist and Vener player. Uh, and we sort of um yeah, collaborated, you know, despite it being like um a very unique uh and like highly refined kind of tradition. He was uh very much up for experimentation and um playing around. We kind of worked out uh I guess the form uh kind of through collaboration. Um yeah, it's been a kind of long process with like um yeah, huge like ups and downs and um and it was kind of a yeah, it was it it trust me, it only happened through like sheer tenacity, is what is what I feel like saying.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Well I I wanted to hear more about those.

The hidden reality of scale

SPEAKER_03 18:52

I'm actually this is okay, we finally got to the G some things. You know, we I gave you my compliments, it was all good now. Let's talk about the you know tough times. I'm just joking, but yeah, I actually am interested in those moments because I think they make a huge bottle uh you know, going up up and down, uh trying to make something work, have a concept, have a trillion of iterations, trying to find funding to know, just like so you had those moments.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Oh absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Um yeah, it was kind of just like yeah, sheer like perseverance and just like a kind of oh just do it anyway, like and and what do you I know well we would do any I feel like so yeah, I don't know even where it begins, but I can begin by you know I d I don't know, do you think it's wrong to assume that for people who are in the experimental or niche genre or in sound art, they would do it anyway? Would you do it anyway, with and without funding?

Burnout After the Big Show

Solo Control vs Delegation

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Um well I mean I guess something of this scale kinda yeah, kinda did need some sort of funding. Um But um yeah, I mean I guess it's just it's gonna be a different thing. I I mean but um I think what I mean is um it sort of got this point where you know we it it would get supported, I'd get a lot of encouragement, uh I'd sort of like present it, and then for whatever reason it wouldn't like, you know, fit the particular um outcome that people were thinking, whether it was like this, you know, originally I was like told, we want your biggest, boldest ideas, make it, you know, make the scale as large as you can. So I kind of did, and this uh like the um suspended translucent structure is like five meters squared or something. It's it's big. Uh it needs a big venue, um, and then people would sort of see it and go, oh, that's not really gonna fit in the place that we're gonna think, and sort of all these logistics like come into play, um, which is kind of interesting. But um it did like I it it like yeah, massively uh affected me. This is obviously when I was you know during like uh like lockdowns in Melbourne um and and this was like the thing I had, like the thing I was working on, like with all that strife and um uncertainty, and then sort of like to get told like oh no, it's it's not gonna we don't want it. And uh, you know, the how that shaped the next uh kind of six months. But you know, of course I just had to eventually just throw myself back into it and just sort of keep it up. And yeah, persevere. It's that's kind of why like having Having finally like presented it at like full scale over five nights at the substation Treasure Topa and how much work was involved there. I basically did everything. I would I would definitely delegate some roles next time. But I it was also just like such a huge like uh sort of emotional expenditure that I've like sort of had to recover from, you know. Yeah, I think I'm pretty much got to move. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, uh yeah, I guess when you're like chasing dreams, but it's this I this question like kept coming up like after I just did it. It was like, so you're gonna do it again? Which was like a bit much to think about initially, but um ultimately I feel like uh like so much effort has gone into it, and I ultimately want as as many people to see it as as as can. And um if it's continued to improve over this time, well there's nothing to say it won't continue to improve up to that.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

So well no, I'm sure. And I think it's like it seems like you got a good lesson from like from the first instance, which is delegation and how are you with that? You know, sometimes you just get into your project or in your idea and you start developing in it, and because we're we're inclined to learn the tools ourselves and like you know, we we explore ourselves, you end up doing everything yourself.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Do you think uh do you have that problem? Or is that a problem? You know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Um I think like there was one one time uh where I I did very much gravitate towards a solo practice because it meant I didn't have to um, you know, coming out of like playing in bands and such, like, oh I don't have to rely, I just have to rely on myself. Um and that's been uh you know a pretty good system.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

It sounds so great when you say it. What it's reality.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Um but I guess also like you know, being a musician in some description, um like yeah, often sort of like collaboration and um like even like yeah, collaboration of ideas or processes and and I in a way I'm kind of like you know, without with all the technology, I'm still sort of just like building an instrument, really. It's still kind of a very strange audiovisual instrument. Um yeah, no, collaboration uh something that I think works. This when I was saying delegate, it's more like um because this was like something that I you know had to hold very tightly to in order to make it work, um, it was more like um you know, like overseeing like every aspect of the production from like getting quotes for the sound system and um making sure that it's the right sound system. Yeah, yeah, and um okay, got it. You know, doing all the yeah, everything from like the like budget to the um itinerary. Yeah, I was producing the whole thing. I could do it, and it felt like it made sense at the time. I did get um some help from um my lighting engineer, Alex Newen, who's incredible. Um but um yeah, it's like it's sort of in hindsight. I still think that was worth doing, but it would be amazing to just like focus on the creative stuff and that might lead to maybe less less burnout.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Yeah, I know. Um I guess it's part of the I I see what you mean, and it's very technical, and you want it, you know, you put so much effort into building this thing, yeah. Um you might as well now finish it off properly and make sure that it delivers and sounds and and looks proper the way you envision it. Yeah. So I don't think that was like a control freak uh moment. Uh it was more like I think I feel like I would do the same, everyone would are the same. Yeah, yeah. But it is a difficult position, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Yeah, you'd have to have someone you really trust who knows what you're trying to do.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

And how many of those people are in Melbourne, Australia? Like it's out of music in a sound engineer, like band sound engineer that you need, or producer.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yeah, it's complicated. You'd have to you'd have to think it would have to be someone who's more like into like used to sort of multi-sensory stuff, even like theater or something.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah, yeah, it's a very interdisciplinary. Your work, it is interdisciplinary. Uh, but what I wanted to ask also, you know, how do you you've been, you know, you you're very well established in the Melbourne sound art thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Sure. We'll go with that.

Melbourne’s Experimental Scene

SPEAKER_03 26:47

Yeah. Or interdisciplin I don't know, like experimental sound. Yeah. Uh experimental art. I don't know, art is experimental. Oh my goodness, this was very bad. You know what I mean? And I think the listeners also know what I mean. Yeah. If I don't end up cutting this out of the podcast, how is it to be a part of the scene? Is it in comparison to, you know, you've been going to Europe, you've been performing other places, or the good sides of this uh scene in Melbourne, in Australia, what are the bad sides? I think um challenges the biggest challenge, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah, I think um something about there's it definitely uh forces some level of like community and connection, um, you know, feeling relatively like isolated compared to somewhere like Europe where you know you can just uh travel to a different city every weekend if you want and you can afford it. Kind of yeah, forces you know, the people that are the that are here kind of um you know in this position where it's like oh we want to we want to make this a great place to live, we want to build community. Um I mean obviously there's a whole there's a long history of like um experimental um like sound art in Melbourne and Australia, you know, the the fair light was developed in Sydney, it's the so sampling is an Australian invention, not to be nationalistic. But um yeah, I think um yeah definitely like uh communities like at the Melbourne Electronic Sound Studio Um and also Where you work where I work um and also Make It Up Club which I um help organize and do the sound for. Um yeah, I mean and I've been playing at the Make It Up Club since I was like 16, 17.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Oh yeah, it's 25 years, like even more, 26 years?

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Yeah, over 25 years. I've lost count. Every Tuesday? Every Tuesday, every week.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Since yeah, a lot of for everyone who listens and haven't been to Make It Up Club, I actually want to shout shout out to that event. Happens every Tuesday night at the Bar Open in Fitzroy on Brunswick Street. Uh you should just pop in. I do that. I actually just I have been a few times, uh maybe maybe not lately, but um I never even check who's playing. It's just like all about coming, appearing, going there, and having an open mind. And I really like the idea behind the event. Yeah, yeah. So since you were 16. Yeah, so that was a pretty It's a good place to like expose yourself to like what this could be or like Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

It's a pretty profound catalyst for yeah, all kinds of like art, I think, in in Melbourne. Um yeah, these kinds of like yeah, pretty like smaller niche kind of like experimental sound communities are like pretty important. There's kind of different facets from like electronic music or more sort of like instrumental improv kind of stuff. But it it it just when you think about the fact that if you know I sort of tried to ex, you know, if I didn't have access to that, um, and sort of tried to explain what I do to someone who, you know, is sort of uninitiated, it's a very, it's a very tricky job, you know. Um and it kind of changes per person as I sort of go, oh well what what do you know about whether that's like electronic engineering or like music or you know, whatever. And I'm like, well, it's kind of like that and a bit like this. Um you know, and it's um yeah, I guess it's it's kind of its own um sort of yeah, pretty fertile uh emerging kind of culture. Um yeah, I mean, compared to like well it's interesting in like um like I've done I've played in like Japan quite a lot and like there's like amazing scenes that are all like so underground and it's it's almost like you can't keep track of it, there's just so much stuff happening. Um and and no one's really uh it's all it's all for the love, it feels like no one's really like surviving off it.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

Um do you think you can s survive here of it?

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Uh with with uh like enough tenacity and support and you know uh after doing it for long enough strategy and like at the moment, yeah. Like um, but you know, of course that that could change. It's part of the deal. Yeah, I mean it is I think it is possible. And yeah, like um again, like uh cities like Berlin, they're kind of crazy, but there's so many people coming and going. It has a different vibe to like Melbourne, where like the scene is very kind of like ever-present.

Creativity vs Admin - Debunking myths

SPEAKER_03 31:54

Um that's a really good point, absolutely. What I've noticed about Melbourne, there's some structure. So uh I'm just trying to like give the listeners also a bigger picture of you know your routines and or your like schedules now that we've talking about, you know, is it possible to live this life? Yeah, this dream life of building huge instruments, yeah. Um but like how how much time and like early on we spoke on the phone and you've mentioned you have a studio. Um is it just like where you live or you have a separate studio? How's your routine? Um I'm just curious about the routine and like how much time do you actually spend creating rather than uh I guess promoting, producing, yeah, yeah, doing things for money.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah. Um well, yeah, I remember like um uh Robin Fox, a colleague of mine, was basically um saying that um he said people have this idea that when you're like an artist, that you're just sort of there, like in the studio, whatever, mixing up paints or just spending all your time doing that, and it's like this like picturesque, beautiful thing. And he's like, Well, I just want to just you know debunk that myth because you know the time in the studio is kind of the last thing to happen. Uh and I'd say that's fairly consistent with me. Um and I'm not gonna deny that I do like run around and just do like you know, live for periods of time a pretty chaotic life trying to scramble to get on top of everything. Um and yeah, I do have a studio um where I live, um which is yeah, you know, it's it's not not even like a treated room, it's just got some you know really nice gear that I've sort of collected over the years. Um and it's you know often in disarray, but um yeah, I'm trying to try to to be more organized.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

Um it ever happened like let's debunk that me. Okay, DJ, come on. This is your chance. Very readily thing. It's like me saying that I will tidy up folders on my computer.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

When you can just get a new hard drive and just gonna be a new hard drive, a new Google Cloud, whatever, and it's just going there like more and more.

Creative Blocks + Returning to Play

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Yeah, and it's and so too, like about the kind of routine. I think I still you know work to work to deadlines, um, and yeah, I would I would love that idea of like, yeah, a specific routine set aside and but uh I guess in reality it it's just all all dependent. Um yeah, I think it's also like a like constant uh effort to sort of think about like ways to be more productive or um yeah, deal with um, you know, w whatever the problems are, whether it's like financial or emotional or distraction, um button writer's block for lack of a better term, which is um Do you struggle with that? Oh well, I I don't think I'd use that term necessarily, but just just as a question of like just to examine like if you're if you're procrastinating, like what is the reason that you're like not wanting not wanting to tackle something? And so for example, like the you know, this like ablation thing, like, um well, you know, there was a there was a massive like emotional um feelings around that and um sort of feelings of you know failure or whatever and and so how do you then make yourself do it anyway or or what what what do you have what do you have to overcome in order to get to the place where you feel like you actually want to be creative again, you know, consistently trying to um like see what works at any given time uh in order to kind of like um keep going in a sense.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

I know exactly like uh what you mean. I when I was in my second year of PhD, in within the scope of eight weeks I built this ensemble, a huge installation, no 16 speakers that use my voice. Wow. And I had the first performance and it was, you know, it was just like not thinking, I was just like operating like a machine. I was just like, just let's build this, right? Let's build it. And then once I did that performance, I hated that work so much that I couldn't look at it for a year. I couldn't think about it. It was like this, you know, while you were saying about this big emotional, like for me it was like I just could not face that work because I just thought how it's shit, how it's like I need to fix all these things, I don't know where to begin. You know, like there's like this huge, like it's like a huge mass between me and that work. Yeah, I don't want to go, I I don't want to go that through that mass at all.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Is that yeah, totally, and then so like my what I would like attempt to kind of solve that problem would be like what uh what are the the the baby steps you can do that like feel good, like if it was related to the voice or something, then like uh how what work can you do with the voice that that doesn't tap into that that feeling of like you know that the the deep void of sorrow? Like, you know, what what are the things you could do around that, you know, where and then you can start to like um you know build some kind of So that's what helped you baby steps?

SPEAKER_03 37:31

Like our topic let's let's be more precise, you know. You know, um is it okay today I'm gonna or this week I'm gonna be I'm gonna sit down and smash that touch designer that one bit that's really bugging me, or is it like is it like very precise steps that sort of like I guess disconnect you from the emotional and are purely let's do it?

SPEAKER_00 37:59

Yeah, I think I think like different approaches, but um I mean I feel like I um can and possibly should even more like just come back to the the the kind of you know original sort of like pure joy of just even like exploring or trying things out and like not having that um feeling of pressure on it on like specific outcomes like so that's like something I you know just just the yeah just the sort of pure awe of like what happens if I do this? Well that's cool, like um that I sort of keep trying to come back to, um but yeah, even just like um if I can't tackle the thing, then what is what is it that I can do and like how did that go? What did I like about that? Um and whether or not it ends up being a different work or something else, like as long as you're like uh staying in that space of like being you know creative in some way. It's not about yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

I see what you mean, yeah. I feel like I don't know, I just kept thinking about innocence and like the yeah, the lot yeah like that you know when when I i I guess maybe it's like to compare it with musicians when you have albums coming out, and then the first album is always like sort of a really good album, and then the second one is I don't know. It's like it's not it's shit because like the first one s was so good that you start thinking about it. Yeah, you know, there's like you start having this sense of oh what if I failed now? Yeah. I forgot about that. Yeah, you become kind of self-conscious, yeah, and like go into your head too much.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:43

Um and it yeah, it just creates this huge block.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:48

I mean at least it ruins the process of it.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Like Yeah. I mean, I feel like there's no yeah, never any like one solution that you know, different things being more prolific, trying different things. Um it's it's interesting that like a lot of the roles I fulfill, it seems, at the moment, are like all kind of based around creativity, which is you know great and something that um I just think is just good. Like it's just good for everything ultimately. It's a sort of form of critical thinking in itself. Um and yeah, so I mean it's great at at at um the Melbourne Electronic Sound Studio where I basically just get to um, you know, uh yeah, people might come in there with preconceptions, and really it's just like, hey, you can do whatever you want with the, you know, some of the incredible machines we have here. Like it's um, you know, people like, oh, you know, can I have do you think I could have like uh could I use this synth and a drum machine? I'm like, you can have three drum machines. Like I don't what what do you want to do? Like that's you know, there's there's nothing like stopping you, there's no judgment.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

It's there's yeah Yeah, it's a good environment. So yeah, yeah, you work at mess and you you uh like have your practice, I guess. Like how many how how much time do you think you can you can spend now? How much time do you spend now just working on your works rather than let's say working at mess or interactive um music composition?

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Hmm. Um yeah, I'm also as I'm also doing a PhD as well, but that's that's also where is that going?

SPEAKER_03 41:31

Is that a good question?

SPEAKER_00 41:33

It's going fine. Um but that's all like and the reason it's going fine is it's all based on my practice anyway. So it's kind of the the work I'm doing. Um well I think um probably like yeah, more of the like um sticking point is like the sort of like admin stuff you get sort of bogged down in trying to like um get to the next phase of presentation or get funding for certain projects or whatever. Um and then you can you can end up sort of gravitating to towards that because it's so definitive, like you're like, oh I I did I sent these emails, I can tick these off. Uh whereas it's like if you start you know um basically developing something, it's like totally nebulous, it can just keep uh going. Um so I don't know, I I don't think I have any sort of I think it's a it's a fine balance. I think I definitely um yeah, would love to spend more time in the studio, but um it's not impossible to to set aside time to do that.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

So yeah, I guess it's it's a matter of also uh it's a process driven work. Like to go back to at now at the end of our conversation, to go back to the beginning. I feel like it's a process-driven work uh for you, and like it it then it's sort of inevitable to have those ups and downs and to have those thinkback loops and and all sorts of vicious circles that we all got in get into of you know, think not seeing the forest out of the tree. I don't know, I just think really deep. Another time, another show. Yeah, I just want to say thank you for your time. I know busy at this point.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

Yeah, welcome to Period Music Talk Podcast, the podcast where I dive deep into the on conversations that face the Melbourne music team. I'm your host, Riva, aka World, and each month I sit down with musicians, music producers, sound designers, and talk about the real challenges that we face in the industry, whether it's breaking into new markets, battling imposter syndromes, overcoming writers' blogs, or just navigating the awful world of social media. A new episode drops every last Tuesday of the month. And to stay connected, you can subscribe to my newsletter where you can access all the links, resources, and insights that I mentioned during the show. Just find the link somewhere, I don't know, below, above, on my website, and you'll never miss a beat.